45 acp damage human body
Bullet coursing from behind the knee to my heel. The 9mm isnt a garbage round but feeling better with these 230 grain Winchester Rangers loaded on my side. For almost 17 years that I carred a badge I carried a S&W 357 on a K frame. My opinion is he got shot in the living room and after he kicked the door in. During a dynamic gun battle with erratic movement by both officer and adversary, this requires extraordinary marksmanship or, more likely, pure luck. However, I purchased the 9 mm because for a carry gun I feel safer with the style of firearm I bought for daily carry purposes. Trailing was easy in snow, but took nearly a mile to put down with another shot low through the heart. Enter https://www.police1.com/ and click OK. According to the song the battle for New Orleans, canonbalks were fired from alligator mouths which showed resourcefulness. Using the cone attack gives you a low ammo condition that imposes disadvantage on attack rolls until you reload, and you have 2 reloads per day. Sudden, immediate and even instant death. It was just announced by Smith & Wesson last week that they are out of the running for the contract. I daily now carry a 9 mm. Most self-defense shootings take place inside 20 feet and are over in seconds; if Im out in public and shooting beyond that distance, itll probably be tough to sell as self-defense to a judge and/or jury anyway. The sheriff convinced the county to issue all the deputies glock 9mms to standardize the weapons and ammunition within the department. Also, I have pretty much explained what you have just said. Math is absolute and backs what Ive stated. The .9mm, took3 rounds to the chest and he never even paused. Train! The last time such a broad survey of gun ownership in America was done, long arms ruled the day and Americans were largely interested in weapons for hunting and other sporting uses. Hollow points are designed to rapidly expand after hitting a target, causing as much damage as possible and reducing the chance of overpenetration. Even a frontal gut shot must penetrate seven or more inches in slender adults for reliable incapacitation. None used a big cal but all targets were immediately incapacitated and all targets were within 1foot to 20 feet away. My department switched to +p for 45s. If I put p++ in my 9 mm, its going to hurt like hell! Come join the discussion about optics, gunsmithing, styles, reviews, accessories, classifieds, and more! So the moral of the story, use what you like, justify it any way you can, and enjoy the shooting sports, its fun, but if your life is on the line, well just give me a 45 in a 1911 Please. Of course there are but in general the .45 with its bigger slower round is the better choice for knockdown power. WebOP you had it right for penetration, 7.62 > 9mm > .45. Indeed, in some studies, such as one conducted by the Law Enforcement Assistance Administration (LEAA), the temporary cavity is assumed to be the primary handgun wounding factor. How higher speed, greater mass, and more surface area increase the damage that rounds can do to human bodies. Growing up in Alaska, I have shot more than a fair share of big game. The FBI agents had loaded jacketed hollow point bullets into their firearms. 15 round mag of 9mm FMJ unless you hit the heart better plan on using 3 to 5 rounds to stop the person. All rights reserved. Experiences on the streets say otherwise. The role of the gun industry in Americas gun violence epidemic. 45 acp damage human body 45 acp damage human body on jun 11, 2022 on jun 11, 2022 The impact of the injury would depend on where the bullet went besides your stomach. Give SOCOM GLocks which shoot 9mm (Glocks are great guns and I dont have a problem with the 9mm, great cartridge especially with all the advancements over the last 30 years) as I was saying problem solved. The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. 3 rounds all center mass within 2 inches of each other. I am not old. Practice thats all it takes. Lee reloading gear. The damage is often extensive, and not just for those who die. 25 ft same situation, I was surprised at 50 ft when my 45 actually tore the watermelon to shreds even more so than 15 and 25ft, the 9mm remained the same, 100 ft I actually missed 3 times with my Walther q4 9mm before I hit. F=MA is not applicable. Yes I can only get 2 shots off accurately in the same time as 4 with a 9 but again 2 usually does it. I also am a NRA Certified Instructor and gunsmith in Colorado. In the technical language of ballistics engineers, the standard unit of measurement for a bullets mass is grains of metal, and depending on the manufacturer, a .7.62. can weigh in at 125 grains. Among other things, this makes it ineffective against body armor. Ive seen too many people want to hunt but do not have ability to take a animals life. According to the Marine Corps Times: For Marine special operators, the never-ending debate over whether the 9mm or .45-caliber round is the more powerful bullet has been settled. Think the title of this article is misleading. Fire Rate: 240 Open carry is fine where Im at. The SEALS sure like their 45 acp, Mark 24 pistols (HK45 compact). For the better part of a decade, working on the streets in 2 of the 4 most dangerous neighborhoods in these United States, (per semi-annual FBI Violent Crime statistics) shot distance and circumstance can NOT be accurately anticipated. This, as with any other type of penetration test, is plagued with inaccuracies. But you have to shoot the gun your most accurate with and most comfortable with but if you dont seat the grip of any pistol in the web of the hand deeply all guns no matter what the caliber the gun will whip in the hand. Ive shot so many different weapons, started at the age of 11, hunted most of my life. I have a Glock19 and Glock23 chambered .40S&W and that is a great round to. A round put through the central nervous system of a target is likely to be incapacitating regardless of the caliber chosen. Have fun be safe and shoot often for sport and recreation and maybe someday to save your life and loved ones! of a 24-year-old man struck in the chest by a .40-caliber hollow-point pistol round, doctors found organ damage outside the direct path of the bullet. Government can spend less of my tax dollars (maybe. Really.. and air on the nose of the bullet?! 0.22" Lead air gun pellet at 600 ft/s will penetrate 4' plate glass. He taught criminal law/procedure at the FBI Academy. I had a neighbor when I lived outside Fort Worth. Shot placement rules. The 9mm leaves the muzzle on average at 1100 feet per second, NOT 1500. Remember, people dont have health bars. I carry a para-ordinance warthog in 45 when its cold.I shoot the gun enought to know I can hit what Im aiming at. You probably wont feel as much pain in your hands or joints when the rounds go off as when youre practicing on the range. If these shootings have something in common, it is each and every one is different. I can buy that. I carry 9mm JHP for EDC and also use JHP in the .40 High Point. I am at a loss for words as I read the above two paragraphs like literally at a loss for words. Of handgun owners alone, 63 percent owned these for the purpose of protecting themselves against other people, with another 20 percent owning them for protection against animals. Of course shot placement is important. I know .45 is a good SD round against the two legged threats. Sign up now to get our latest stories and eye-opening briefings. Projectiles incapacitate by damaging or destroying the central nervous system, or by causing significant and potentially lethal blood loss. It stood there looking at me. Thats right George. If you have been hit with any kind of bullet large, fast, expanding, or otherwise please, Gunman Used Heavily Restricted Assault Weapon in California UPS Shooting. But associates I worked with and against on jobs they all use one main gun to kill with the 9 mm with silencer. True enough, but the dead enemy will not lie there or sit-up and shoot or pull the pin on a grenade on you as the wounded enemy might. Knock down power. Work scenarios out in your head before they happen. That much is true. Going back and reading over your original post, by the by, I can only say this: Also, there are documented cases from New York and other law enforcement agencies of officers shooting criminals and having their bullets pass entirely through the criminal and striking a civilian bystander, thus wounding someone not engaged by the police officer. That aside, its always been my impression with any pistol cartridge, that they dont achieve the velocity necessary for expansion. The germans used 9mm forever and they know their guns and war making. If I am just going to the range with my son, I prefer the .45. Thats what I pack in the deep woods. Especially when it carries nearly double the mass with the bullet? Both are great bullets, but not really comparable. So the moral of the story is: if youre 5 foot tall, and weigh a hundred pounds, the last thing you probably want to carry with you is a 1911. But thats me. 9mm beats .45acp. Great article by the way. One or two out of every twenty or more perfect placement leaves me desirous of a heavy hitter. A 9mm round fired at close range to the skull with the correct ammunition will be fatal nearly all the time. There are far too many different considerations and circumstances between self-defense necessities and military/LE necessities to list in a comment section; but theyre important distinctions. Patrick explains in his treatise that, A bullet simply cannot knock a man down. But by standing a flock of sheep in that position you can make a crowd of men. It may take 2 rounds to take someone down, but the shooter will have a lot easier follow up shots with the smaller 9mm. Anyone who has seen Clint Eastwoods Dirty Harry movies is familiar with Sergeant Callahans favorite sidekick, his .44 magnum revolver. After decades of witnessing the 45 vs 9 mm battle. My feeling is that the gun for you will be as individual as you are. It is also of considerable general interest if for no other reason than to show how often the movie makers and novel writers make appalling blunders. Richard, I guess I have little feminine hands as I prefer to carry my 9mm for self-defense and on duty. I'll tell you what DOES impact penetrationit is the frontal area of the bullet and its relative friction and resistance as it impacts a body and attempts to travel through. Daniel, the US has generally abided by the Hague (and Geneva) Conventions and their respective protocols. I can not remember a single specific instance of someone shot with JHP, where I knew for a fact at the time what I was looking at. This study is thus inherently flawed, as it ranks large shallow wounds above deeper ones. (stress free situation) I also have a sig, p38 and carry that when its warm out.hightly concealable in a alien gear holster. The 7.62 round is not as fast as the .223, the round fired by the AR-15 (Americas most popular semiautomatic rifle), but it hits its target with more energy. Which might had something to do with losing the Revolutionary War, where Americans used guerilla tactics. I had a Sig P320 and the recoil is not that much greater. I see your point. However, the round stopped just short of entering Platts heart/aorta, only penetrating his torso about six or seven inches. As for accuracy, I hear a lot of my friends talking about the accuracy of their 45s over a distance compared to my 9 mm, but no one to date has outshot me on the range, and almost all of my friends have switched to a 9 millimeter in the past few years. The energy delivered to the target increases geometrically along with increases in mass, and exponentially with increases in velocity. I seen it first hand as well. Like John Saunders, I also used a M1D scoped. Now good defensive hollow point is a different story. Using the right bullet is where it counts. Your body will make the shot while your mind hesitates every time! 2 from 15 ft, 2 from 25 ft, jumping to 2 from 50 ft. And 2 from 100ft. I dont plan on using a handgun for long distance shooting. I am older now, living in the city. With practice almost anything is possible. 158 gr 0.357" Magnum semi-jacketed bullet will penetrate outside skin of car door and sometimes just penetrate the inside skin. Handgun wounds include the first three of these factors, but generally do not include the fourth. 9mm, I carry 147 grain Hp. It was a contact shot into the center chest on a sleeping target. How about a 147gr vs 155 gr comparison? I have shot many different calibers. 0.177" Lead air gun pellet requires a minimum of 300 ft/s velocity to penetrate fresh human skin. Because recoil obviously cant be observed and you have to shoot someone huh, I heard of a police officer shooting a dog 6 times with a 9 mm before being able to incapacitate the dog. The double stack G19 is thicker. Gramins was using a 13+1 capacity Glock 21 in .45 ACP. A .50 Desert Eagle is no good if you cannot carry it and get it out and shoot it accurately and fairly quickly, no matter what the knock-down power if you were able to hit anything with it. All this scientific garbage really sounds great, but if you need fifteen rounds to eliminate a threat you got real bad aiming habits. You would think he would know a thing or two about firearms and ballistics with a title like that. What more and more people are choosing is CAPACITY. But its definitely not easy to carry concealed (especially in hot weather) and Im big guy. This post has been updated to include information released by the FBI regarding the weapon used in the shooting. In the technical language of ballistics engineers, the standard unit of measurement for a bullets mass is grains of metal, and depending on the manufacturer, a .7.62 can weigh in at 125 grains. Chiverss history of the assault rifle, The Gun: In the macabre world of terminal ballistics, the study of what happens when projectiles actually strike, much can be made of over-penetration: the phenomenon of bullets passing clean through their targets. I even tried to do the same test with my Tuger SR9 compact and it was a worse outcome than the Walther. The U.S. military collected reports of its effects on the first Viet Cong combatants to be shot with the bullet. The 9mm is being adopted by military and law enforcement due to its higher capacity and lower price, as well as the reduced recoil which increases accuracy for many who find the .45 a bit much to handle. If another prefers a 9mm let him use it. 9mm. I can say with great certainty that many animals dont just simply fall over and die. Be Safe Out There. After reading your article, I had to 1.) PS: I forgot to mention that as a SAW gunner I was allowed to carry an old .45 (Springfield Armory). The amount of energy a bullet radiates into a target is determined by a simple formula taught in high school: Its the product of one half the projectiles mass times the square of the velocity. For example, a shot through the side of the body must penetrate between 10 to 12 inches to hit the heart. So, as so many have said above, it depends on what you are comfortable with and what you plan to be doing with it. Web45 ACP Ammo | 45 ACP Ammo for Sale | Ammunition Depot 3/2/2023 ON SALE Ammunition Bulk Ammo Bulk 223 Ammo Bulk 9mm Ammo Bulk 45 ACP Ammo Bulk 380 Ammo Bulk 308 Ammo Bulk 7.62x39 Ammo Bulk 22 LR Ammo Bulk Pistol Ammo Bulk Rifle Ammo Bulk Shotgun Ammo Handgun Ammo 9mm Ammo 380 Ammo 45 ACP Ammo 38 Special Developed in the early 1960s, the .223 round was first used in Vietnam. The story makes that even sound too few. I know this is off topic. Why do I say that? Hit your enemy Quickly and Hes Dead. The 1986 FBI Miami shootout between eight FBI agents and two serial bank robbers was the deadliest and most violent shootout in FBI history. A 45acp will deliver more damage to a human body that a 9mm. Which things can be argued, but more important is being able to handle what you have. Glad you are doing well. Maybe if you were trying to make 100+ yard shot thatd make a little difference. Witnessed it first hand. I have also read that the 124gr NATO round is a +P. The general plan of attack for officers is to use some weapon other than a handgun. It simply means that if you can shoot someone in the head, basically anything will do. Your story could have just as easily gone the same way but with a Glock 21 (similar to Timothy Gramins experience). To each their own. Just wanted to throw that against the wall. I have both, like them all, and carry them because rifles are hard to conceal! So they fudge the data. I have not fired it yet but have dry fired it some to get back in tune. Remember we started this country with every make and model of firearm known to man.Give our men our warriors the best.Let them choose the caliber they know better than anyone. Do your thing, your responsible for your actions! Penetration of this length and the tissue, blood vessel and organ damage/destruction that follows is vital to circulatory collapse. Im very confident a 45 caliber would have been one and done. Witch in reality are only good enough to fight yourself to a long gun I have 2 Henry levers that shoot the same .357 having 3 weapons. Both really do not muster up for the Marines. Basically what I'm saying is the .50 is almost the same size as .45 and the tissue damage is near the same. His chest was gurgling and slurping. Doctors later determined that this round was not survivable. There is little or no noticeable difference in wound tracks between 9mm Luger, .40 S&W and .45 Auto premium line rounds. Officer needs help!! But you have no proof that the .45 ACP will work that much better. The fact is, 9mm is fast and cheap, .45acp is big and just as effective if not more, given the wound channel is gonna be much larger than that of a 9mm. If one keeps a weapon in the home for self defense, we believe that it is a duty to know the weapon inside and out and to train with it regularly. Ruger already dominates the American handgun market, and they are very profitable, so it may not have been worth it to them. But we generally would refer to them as cartridges or rounds as a bullet is just the projectile portion encased in a cartridge and loaded into the firearm. If you find yourself in a legitimate self-defense scenario, you will likely not have the opportunity nor the wherewithal to take a careful and well-aimed shot at your assailant's head. We began clearing the location and papa was lying face up in nothing but his white-e-tieties. A little back ground, for almost 17 years that I carried a badge I carried a S&W 6 357 on a K frame as my service carry. round, you can see all three effects. Police, f.b.i., train. But with my Kimber Colt 45 I hit first shot no problem and it left that watermellon in disaster. Though the patient survived and only had a small wound, he suffered extensive contusions throughout his lungs. Train, train train and when your done. One week later the detective in charge advised me that papa lived, walked out of the hospital and back to Mexico. As blood moves through the body, it picks up extra fluid, chemicals and waste. Ask deerhunters. The energy delivered to the target increases geometrically along with increases in mass, and exponentially with increases in velocity. Id use either! What I have found, is its a matter of preference. With bigger bullets, you will make bigger holes., What makes the .223 potentially deadlier than the .22 is its velocity. You can either hit a target or not that simple. And thats hardly re-enacting a self defense scenario. Again this is my opinion and it is based on personal COMBAT EXPERIENCE. The larger a projectiles surface area, the greater its ability to transfer its energy to the target, instead of simply penetrating straight through. A. H. Hassall, The microscopic anatomy of the human body Wellcome L0024128.jpg 1,100 1,796; 960 KB. Wood, USMC, 1966-68, Quang tri Province. I think everyone should think back to why the 1911 was made. Come On People!! So, the answer is simple, right? The 45s power and bullet size vs. the 9 mm Luger round was Cant get into why I know this but but Im retired from the Government. That said today I only carry my 5th gen Glock 19. However, for the civilian this is generally an impractical plan for a variety of reasons. For me, that is the Sig p226 9mm. True, Or not? The Marine Corps Times is not published by the Marine Corps. But honestly, if you cannnot conceal a 1911 you cant conceal a G19.. Thats a bs statement, I know this because I carry concealed and my 1911 conceals just as well as a single stack 9mm compact. In this dangerous time period, an officers adversary can continue his deadly actions against an officer. There were 3 casings in the bathroom and a couple of more in the living room 10-12 ft away. Got to love 45 in Army Guard 21 years. So Marines are now trained to simply kill them. At that long distance, the .223 will slam into its target with almost twice the speed of the .22. Although it should be noted that Glock is manufacturing in the US now, Sig Sauer is as well. That alone could be a convincing argument to switch platforms. The 9mm is a typical government one-size-fits-all solution. When all else fails, when the rounds fail to stop the bad guy, then you need time on your side. If the Government is involved in any way, money will change hands. I just got a glock30SF and im thinking of adding her to the g27 for my CC permit. I have several. Sit back and take a deep breath and pray that if I am ever involved in a use of force criminal trial, pray like mad that this Marine is NOT called as an Expert Witness because I do not think there is enough toilet paper in a courthouse to clean up the mess this guy is going to make from his testimony. The will to live and fight varies from person-to-person. .40 S&W I carry 180 grain HP. Thank you. The concern that a round will pass through an assailant and harm an innocent bystander is largely exaggerated. So, have you experienced shooting someone at close range with each caliber to determine the stopping power of each round? His analysis is paramount to someone telling me the 7mm Rem Mag will outperform the 8mm Rem Mag. The beautiful country in south east Asia. Im 73 yoa. Most rounds fired do not hit anyone at all. The amount of energy a bullet radiates into a target is determined by a simple formula taught in high school: Its the product of one half the projectiles mass times the square of the velocity. Also my pattern emptying a clip rapidly against someone with a 9mm, Ill win that as well all day everyday! Now as far as the technology of rounds go, technology has improved for all of the basic calibers including 45 so there is no advantage there for the 9. Avoid contact with other people's blood and body fluids. Maximum velocity is achieved only at barrel exit, then slows during flight through the viscous median known as our environment (air). Kimber 1911 Rapide Dawn .45 ACP Pistol $ 1649 99 1649 dollars 99 cents. The FBI has made a pragmatic decision that the 147 grain 9mm bullet is the best bullet for its agents because it allows for more rounds in the handgun. Marine Force Recon Vietnam Vet. 10 Best ways to Make Money on Social Media and not waste time. The tests resulted in the selection in 1989 of the 10mm bullet as the most effective and accurate round for FBI agents to carry. The expansive quality of these rounds creates larger permanent cavities. But if stopping power is your only indicator of success in battle, then I suggest a WWII 16 inch navy rifle same as the Battleship Missouri ! The original FBI testing of bullets conducted in the late 1980s involved testing the Winchester 147 grain subsonic hollow point 9mm round, the Remington 185 grain hollow point .45 round and a 10mm 180 grain hollow point round. Well judging by the fact that .45 has been killing people since at least the 1870sI'd say it can really screw up your day. Im sure many hunters can attest to the expansion of rifle bullets recovered from their game. If you notice in Police shootings, the gun is usually empty after the event is over. Really late to the discussion. They should provide officers who can control the larger weapons a choice about which pistol they are permitted to carry. Damage: 55. Their explanation (other than increasing ammo capacity): bullet technology has come a long way since 1986. Until someone actually compares a 9mm of comparable bullet weight and charge to a 45 acp of the same I will continue in my retirement to carry my tried and true 45acp with a third more bullet weight and very similar penetration even with biased testing of much different bullet weights and charges. THAT shot better make a change. To me the rest dont count. The mechanism by which adamantinomatous craniopharyngioma (ACP) damages the hypothalamus is still unclear. The best I heard about itcirca Desert Shieldwas that at least the guns werent beaten completely to death, badly maintained by armorers who were phoning it in, and handed out off the rack with worn-out springs and safety levers falling out, like the M1911s had been ever since after Korea. In this article, we will present what we believe to be the most credible information regarding wound ballistics from studies conducted by the FBIs Firearms Training Academy in legendary Quantico, Virginia.